Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 15:50:57 +0000
Sender: Quantum Approaches to Consciousness
From: Saul-Paul Sirag <sirag@POND.NET>
Subject: [q-mind] Qualia from Hilbert space? -- Dimiter Chakalov
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
From: Dimiter G. Chakalov

Subject: Qualia from Hilbert space?

Q: Can we feel the Hilbert space?
A: Yes, Virginia, we can feel the Hilbert space. It's called intuition.

Let me try to explain.

[Stephen Gamboa-Eastman, Hilbert Space, Collective Unconscious, and DNA, Q-Mind Digest Sun, 13 Dec 1998]

For example, in EPR-type experiments a crucial distinction exists between localized individual measurements and nonlocal processes whose existence we know about by comparing the results of local measurements. Whatever consciousness is if it has a quantum nonlocal component, it cannot be solely restricted to space-time local events even if it is those events that trigger our awareness of the results of those processes. Therefore, a significant part of consciousness in a quantum consciousness approach to consciousness must take place in Hilbert space, i.e. that part of reality which we model by Hilbert Space. [end of excerpt]

[Dimi, current]
What we call intuition is our silent UNspeakable 'scanning' of all Platonic ideas to find the perfect match of what we want to verbalize. What operates on this layer is our intuition. Perhaps the best example is the so-called 'at the tip of the tongue effect': sometimes we cannot remember a name or telephone number, but it sits 'at the tip of the tongue', and we scan our memory until we find the exact match. Once we find it, that feeling is gone, disappears.

For other examples, I will quote from two notes.

[Dimi Chakalov. Spin networks face the hard problem, Q-Mind Digest Fri, 4 Sep 1998]

I'd like to offer you an experiment that you can perform with your own brain.

There is a fine saying "you can bring a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink".

We can understand the meaning of this, because we're operating with a Platonic idea. We do NOT collapse the Platonic idea by explicating it, because we do NOT imply here neither "water" nor "horse" literally.

The whole point is that our brain operates with the neuronal representation/correlate of the *explications* of the Platonic idea, while our mind is scanning the whole Platonic realm to get the proper Platonic idea that fits our intended action. Then we explicate -- not "collapse" -- the Platonic idea by some words of our choice, like the example with the saying that is NOT about horses and water literally taken.
[end of excerpt]

[Dimi Chakalov, Self-perturbations of spacetime geometry? Q-Mind Digest Fri, 27 Nov 1998]

Also, we do not mix apples with oranges. The latter is, however, a well-known saying, which also has a Platonic idea. The magic with Platonic ideas is that we ALL can understand them, despite the fact that we do NOT imply here neither apples nor oranges literally.


Also, we can translate "Who has no horse may ride on a staff" with "Faute de mieux, on couche avec sa femme". There are many more demonstrations that we do operate on some UNspeakable level, scanning the whole Platonic realm to get the proper Platonic idea, and to explicate it with concrete words. [end of excerpts]

[Dimi, current]

Again, let's make it quite clear: we operate *simultaneously* on TWO layers, Platonic ideas and their concrete 'here-and-now' explications. There is no "push pull" or zig-zag jumping from one layer to the other. We are *constantly* on both layers, the mental one where the Platonic realm is residing, and the material one, -- our brain.

More on this two-layer activity can be found in "The free will AB OVO" Q-Mind Digest Sun, 16 Aug 1998, at

The alternative view point is that we do NOT have any qualia from the Hilbert space.

[Stuart Hameroff. Quantum isolation in the cytoplasm (reply to Chakalov), Q-Mind Digest Sat, 19 Dec 1998]

Of course activities in the cytoplasm may be considered "environment" or noise, but we don't really know.


The Orch OR model proposes that the quantum computation/superposition phase occurs in microtubules during the gel phase of sol-gel cycles (which can occur rapidly, e.g. at 40 Hz). [end of excerpts]

[Dimi, current]

DURING the gel phase -- that's a whole eternity -- 25 msec, compared to what Heisenberg would say here! Also, *during* these 25 msec we are hooked on the Planck scale, some 30 magnitudes "below" our brain? Perhaps the time has come for Roger Penrose to brief us on gravity, consciousness and the Platonic realm?



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